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Grappling

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squirewaldo
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Grappling

Post by squirewaldo » Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:53 am

I was thinking last night about grappling, and how M20 has nothing to offer. The few times our groups has grappled, there seems to have been no consistent method of resolving it. Perhaps that is for the best. I don't really like the D&D grappling rules so...

I cam up with these:


Grappling

Grappling (or perhaps even wrestling and bare knuckle brawling) is a form of Combat which uses two (2) opposed Skill Checks to determine the outcome.

The initiating Character is either already in contact with the target or moves into contact during his or her turn, and then proceeds to attempt a grapple. Both Characters will roll two (2) opposed Skill Checks – one based upon the STR Bonus and one based upon the DEX Bonus (don’t forget the Skill Rank – usually Physical). If one of the Characters is an NPC or Creature without Ability Stats or Bonuses then use the number of Hit Dice for both STR and DEX unless the NPC has a specific Attack Bonus for Grappling.

If either Character succeeds at both rolls the other Character is grappled.

If neither succeed at both rolls the grapple is inconclusive and fails.

There are two (2) types of grapples:

1) Sporting Grapple – Both parties voluntarily enter into the contest, and both agree to set down their weapons.
2) Combat Grapple – not voluntary, and the attacked Character can choose to keep his or her shield and weapons in order to attack with them during the next turn (but if successful in the grapple rolls will not be able to successfully grapple the opponent – only avoid a grapple); or drop the shield and weapons in order to be able to successfully grapple the opponent.

If the action is a Combat Grapple and one Character is successful, he or she may immediately follow up with a bare hand attack against the grappled and defenseless Character.

If a Character is successful in grappling his or her opponent, then the grappled Character may attempt to break the Grapple during his or her next turn (and each subsequent turn thereafter if unsuccessful). This will again be two (2) opposed Skill Checks as described above, but the grappled Character will roll each with disadvantage. If the grappled Character fails to escape the grapple, he or she is pinned subject only to someone else coming to his or her aid. The successful Character may continue to attack the grappled Character with bare hands during each turn.

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quaffeine
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Re: Grappling

Post by quaffeine » Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:15 pm

Are you insinuating, sir, that my sessions are off-the-cuff and not at all thoroughly planned?

How dare you! Insulted my honor!!!

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squirewaldo
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Re: Grappling

Post by squirewaldo » Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:31 pm

There were a few grappling events in my games that I grappled with... I think unsuccessfully.

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quaffeine
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Re: Grappling

Post by quaffeine » Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:56 pm

I like the involvement (or at least potential involvement) of STR and DEX for this... it's the difference between muscling an opponent compared to using quickness/technique to catch someone.

I think though that requiring success on two separate rolls makes it statistically too difficult for someone to grapple. Doing a quick check on this site shows that requiring the second success makes the chance of grappling drop like 20%. Add in the ability for the opponent to also double-success and (presumably) block the grapple, it seems like a low pay-off maneuver. Maybe allow the grapplers to use either STR or DEX, depending on their fighting style.

I do like the concept of Sporting vs Combat grapples, though defined slightly differently than you have it. In fencing there are techniques which use the off-/buckler arm to tie up the opponent's sword arm, thus grappling in such a way that allows subsequent melee attacks. This versus "pure" grappling i.e. wrestling, BJJ and the like. And it makes sense that these would be handled in slightly different ways.

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randalls
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Re: Grappling

Post by randalls » Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:34 pm

quaffeine wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:56 pm

I think though that requiring success on two separate rolls makes it statistically too difficult for someone to grapple. Doing a quick check on this site shows that requiring the second success makes the chance of grappling drop like 20%.

THIS. Requiring multiple rolls for success drops the actual chance of success quite a bit more than many people realize. There is enough misunderstanding about this that I started adding a section on this to the "GM advice" part of my larger games. For example here's the one from BX Advanced:

Multiple Success Rolls and Probability
Many Gamemasters like to break tasks like climbing a cliff into a number of success rolls, as players tend to enjoy rolling dice and Gamemasters often believe that rolling dice adds tension to the game. There is nothing wrong with doing this provided you understand and accept the effects requiring multiple successes have on the chance of failure.

For example, let's take climbing a cliff. You have decided that the party needs to roll 15 or less on a D20 (a 75% chance of success) to successfully climb the cliff face and that each attempt will take about an hour. This is one roll and the characters have a 75% chance of successfully climbing you gave them, so the characters will find themselves at the top of that cliff in an hour 3 out of 4 times (i.e., 75% of the time just as you would expect from their success chance). However, if you decide that the cliff is high enough that two rolls are required, one to reach the midway point of the climb and another to reach the top of the cliff from the midpoint, then the characters will only find themselves at the top of the cliff about 12 times in 20 attempts - their chance of success dropped from 75% to about 56% (75% x 75%). If you require three rolls, the characters will only find themselves at the top of the cliff about 21 times out of every 50 attempts - the chance of success dropped to just over 42% (75% x 75% x 75%). Requiring 4 rolls drops the chance of reaching the top to just under 32% (75% x 75% x 75% x 75%). Requiring 5 rolls drops that chance to about 24% (75% x 75% x 75% x 75% x 75%).

While multiple die rolls for success can fun and can increase tension, multiple rolls should probably be used sparing due to the reduction in the chance of success caused by requiring multiple successful rolls to complete the task. When you choose to require multiple rolls you should generally ensure that the result of failing any one roll does not result in a disaster. For example, if you are going to require three rolls to climb a cliff, the result of failing a roll should be something like time lost to having to try another route up the cliff instead characters injuring themselves or worse, falling to their doom.

--above text is Open Game Context under the OGL.

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RandallS
Playing and Gamemastering Tabletop RPGs Since 1975
Designer: Microlite74, Microlite75, Microlite78, Microlite81, Microlite20 OSS, and others
Compiler: The Microlite20 RPG Collection
Administrator: Microlite20 Nexus


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squirewaldo
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Re: Grappling

Post by squirewaldo » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:39 am

quaffeine wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:56 pm

I think though that requiring success on two separate rolls makes it statistically too difficult for someone to grapple.

That was my goal. I don't think grappling should be so easy, unless you have some real advantage. Grappling with someone is much more difficult than punching someone standing an arm's length from you. In the absence of some real advantage, such as very high STR and DEX, or perhaps some skill/expertise bonus given to a wrestler, martial artists, etc., I think Grappling should be something very difficult. IMHO.

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squirewaldo
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Re: Grappling

Post by squirewaldo » Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:54 pm

I went and made some changes to the proposed Grappling rules. They are now optional in KOOKS. Also, I added an extra +2 Physical Skill bonus for Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers who are trying to Grapple.

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squirewaldo
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Re: Grappling

Post by squirewaldo » Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:25 pm

I think I have clarified my idea regarding a Grapple Contest. It might still suck, but at least this is what I was intending!

http://www.bozbat.com/microlite20-rpg-s ... e20-kooks/

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squirewaldo
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Re: Grappling

Post by squirewaldo » Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:28 am

and here is the proposed final rule without having to go to my website and download the rules:

Grapple Contest
(OPTIONAL)
Grappling is a form of Combat which uses
two (2) opposed Skill Checks to determine
the outcome. This is because grappling is not
easy. Its more than just over-powering
someone with your strength, but you must
also keep that person from wiggling out of
your hold using dexterity. Initiating a
grapple is initiating a contest between 2
Characters in which either may win.

The initiating Character is either already in
contact with the target or moves into
contact during his or her turn, and then
proceeds to attempt a grapple. This begins
the contest.

Both Characters will roll two (2) opposed
Skill Checks – one based upon the STR Bonus
and one based upon the DEX Bonus (don’t
forget the Skill Rank – usually Physical). If
one of the Characters is an NPC or Creature
without Ability Stats or Bonuses then use
the number of Hit Dice for both STR and
DEX unless the NPC has a specific Attack
Bonus for Grappling. Also, the GM may
want to create the Ability Stats and Skill
Rank for the NPC on the fly.

If either Character succeeds at both rolls the
other Character is grappled.
If neither succeed at both rolls the grapple is
inconclusive and fails, but the contest
continues.

DISENGAGING FROM A GRAPPLE
CONTEST – If at the end of the turn neither
side succeed at grappling the other, during
the next turn of one of the contestants:
• they both can agree to disengage, or
• the one whose turn it is can attempt
to disengage using the same
mechanism but with Advantage. If the
disengaging Character wins at least
one (1) roll then the disengage is
successful.

There are two (2) types of grapples:

  1. Sporting Grapple – Both parties
    voluntarily enter into the contest, and
    both agree to set down their weapons.
  2. Combat Grapple – not voluntary, and
    the attacked Character can choose to
    keep his or her shield and/or weapons
    in order to attack with them during
    the next turn (but if successful in the
    grapple rolls will not be able to
    successfully grapple the opponent –
    only avoid a grapple); or drop the
    shield and/or weapons in order to be
    able to successfully counter grapple
    the opponent.

If the action is a Combat Grapple and one
Character is successful, he or she may
immediately follow up with a bare hand
attack against the grappled and defenseless
Character.

ESCAPING FROM A SUCCESSFUL
GRAPPLE – If a Character is successful in
grappling his or her opponent, then the
grappled Character may attempt to escape
from the Grapple during his or her next turn
(and each subsequent turn thereafter if
unsuccessful). This will again be two (2)
opposed Skill Checks as described above, but
the grappled Character will roll each with
disadvantage. If the grappled Character fails
to escape the grapple, he or she is pinned
subject only to someone else coming to his
or her aid. The successful Character may
continue to attack the grappled Character
with bare hands during each turn.

GRAPPLING BONUS – Fighters, Paladins,
and Rangers get an additional +2 to the Skill
Rank in Physical when grappling.

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randalls
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Re: Grappling

Post by randalls » Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:30 am

squirewaldo wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:28 am

and here is the proposed final rule without having to go to my website and download the rules:

I like these rules better.

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RandallS
Playing and Gamemastering Tabletop RPGs Since 1975
Designer: Microlite74, Microlite75, Microlite78, Microlite81, Microlite20 OSS, and others
Compiler: The Microlite20 RPG Collection
Administrator: Microlite20 Nexus


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