Author Topic: Microlite74 M74 Sucks! Can we fix it?  (Read 8209 times)

Offline randalls

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 140
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: M74 Sucks! Can we fix it?
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2013, 07:23:50 am »
- In microlite 74 extended, in the cleric class description, you do precise the kind of weapons then cannot use (edge weapons) but you do not precise the kind of weapons they can use effectively (light, medium, heavy ?)

Clerics can use any weapon, provided it is not an edged weapon.

Quote
-The cleric again : is the use of a sacred symbol really also needed for the smite ability ? Because it means that the cleric cannot fight, smite and use his shield in the fight.

That's correct. A cleric needs to use his sacred symbol to smite with a weapon. This means he cannot use a shield at the same time. Unless you are being very generous, it also means he can't smite with a two-handed weapon.

Quote
- In the skills chapter there is a Microlite75 still hanging around ^^

Noted! Thanks for catching that. I have a bad habit of typing 75 when I mean 74 (because my mind likes numbers ending in 5).

Offline Islayre

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Country: fr
    • View Profile
Re: M74 Sucks! Can we fix it?
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2013, 03:10:06 am »
Well, fair enough i will do it on m own  :P

Other topic :

- In microlite 74 extended, in the cleric class description, you do precise the kind of weapons then cannot use (edge weapons) but you do not precise the kind of weapons they can use effectively (light, medium, heavy ?)
-The cleric again : is the use of a sacred symbol really also needed for the smite ability ? Because it means that the cleric cannot fight, smite and use his shield in the fight.

- In the skills chapter there is a Microlite75 still hanging around ^^

Offline randalls

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 140
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: M74 Sucks! Can we fix it?
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2013, 01:35:36 pm »
Anyway, my point is, as a reader, i'm confused about what is "plug-&-playable" in M74 extended from this chapter of the Companion I

Nothing in Companion I: Optional Rules or Companion III: More Optional Rules is intended to be considered "plug-&-playable" with any version of Microlite74. As the introduction text in both volumes says:

Quote
Each item is independent and can be added or ignored as the GM decides. Some sections may interfere with or contradict other sections.
[Emphasis Added]

Perhaps it could have been clearer, but the intent was to point out that some optional rules may contradict other sections of the rules. I assumed that "and in such cases the GM opting to use those rules will need to resolve any such contradictions as he or she feels best for his or her campaign" was obvious and need not be said. Perhaps I should not have assumed -- assuming always bites me in the rear.

Quote
IMHO (and just to be perfectly clear : man, i LOVE you work, no offense intended, i just give you my opinion as a player and a game designer myself) it's not really about game balance it's about player satisfaction.
It is not fun, from a player point of view and especially in a darwinist envirronement like old school games, to make, from the start, a sub-optimal choice because you want to play an elf ranger.

I've never even thought about making "optimal choices" at character design time in old school play. There aren't that many choices to make at design time -- one of the major advantages of old school DnD, IMHO -- and none of them are really sub-optimal in the sense that some choices are sub-optimal in 3.x. What choices are more optimal depends on the campaign one is playing in more than it depends on the rules.

Quote
With a base experience modifier of +7, the player can assume that he plays the (sligtly) most powerfull race of all the base races. In fact, if he plays anything else than a magic user/illusionist he will play the weakest of all... But still will pay for it.

Old school DnD assigns higher experience point requirements and/or level limits to demi-humans based on the extra abilities demi-humans get that humans do not get. They have those abilities whether or not they select a class that uses those extra abilities to maximum effect and therefore pay for them simply because they have them. This is strange to people used to point buy systems like HERO or GURPS where point costs are based on game-effectiveness of the effect. Microlite74 and Microlite81 are going to do it the same way. GMs are free to ignore the "printed rules" and handle demi-humans differently if they wish. The "rules" aren't really "rules" in the modern DnD sense anyway. They are merely a framework and guidelines for the GM.

0e stated this clearly in the Introduction (Booklet I, page 4): "As with any other set of miniatures rules they are
guidelines to follow in designing your own fantastic-medieval campaign. They provide the framework around which you will build a game of simplicity or tremendous complexity." And the Afterword (Booklet III, page 36) states: "In this light we urge you to refrain from writing for rules interpretations or the like unless you are absolutely at a loss, for everything herein is fantastic, and the best way is to decide how you would like it to be and then make it just that way! On the other hand, we are not loathe to answer your questions, but why have us do any more of your imaginings for you?"

This is very different from the way tabletop RPG rules are seen by many today: as some type of semi-divine text handed down from professional designers that should not be changed by grubby non-professionals like GMs and players least they ruin the game or play it in a different way than the designer intended. To this I say "Humbug! Most GMs and many players are as good at designing rules for their campaign and their players as the average 'professional'."

Quote
A simple fix could be to propose a elf version without this capacity and with a lower experience modifier.
But i must admit i'm not a big fan either of the "+2 against goblinoids" capacity because it's too much situational ("Guys, tonight you're gonna play Ravenloft, if you pick an elf, you're screwd").

I don't think that way and would not do that. However, Microlite74 is unlikely to break if you want to do that in your campaign. Even at worst, the most that is likely to happen is you'll just end up with a lot of players deciding to play elves. Go for it and see how it works in play for your players and your campaign -- they are the only things that really matter. My opinion of it, the opinion of others, etc. should not carry nearly as much weight as what works best for your campaign and your players.

Offline Islayre

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Country: fr
    • View Profile
Re: M74 Sucks! Can we fix it?
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2013, 03:08:56 am »
I do not use Dark Elves as PCs, so they aren't in Extended. No version of Microlite74 is intended to be played "rules-as-written" however. If you want to use dark elves in Microlite74 extended, feel free to add them -- with or without stat modifiers as you prefer.

My point is essentially about the "version suitability" : the 3 races from companion I are noted as suitable for any version of M74 (including extended).

The fact that the gnomes and half-orcs from the companion are different than the M74 Extended version is confusing. Same about the Dark-Elf : because of the gnome and half-orc, as a reader, i ask myself "is he really suitable for M74 extended ? He does not have stat bonus... But he does have some magic abilities specific to M74 extended..."

Anyway, my point is, as a reader, i'm confused about what is "plug-&-playable" in M74 extended from this chapter of the Companion I

The cost of an elf is based on what abilities the elf has that a human does not. The ability to cast spells in armor is one of those elf special abilities. The elf has it, even if he never takes advantage of it.

0e, like other early forms of D&D is not about absolute balance nor charop, so I am not going top design Microlite74 around this type of balance. As I've said before, however, Microlite74 is not meant to be played "rules-as-written" (although it works if you do) -- it is meant as a starting point for the GM to customize to meet the needs of his setting and his players. If you don't like the way a race is set up, you can rewrite it as you and your players want it to work.

Sure. If someone writes up an alternate version of a Microlite74 race (or anything else) and posts on this board chances are good it will end up in a future "Optional Rules III" companion.

IMHO (and just to be perfectly clear : man, i LOVE you work, no offense intended, i just give you my opinion as a player and a game designer myself) it's not really about game balance it's about player satisfaction.
It is not fun, from a player point of view and especially in a darwinist envirronement like old school games, to make, from the start, a sub-optimal choice because you want to play an elf ranger.

With a base experience modifier of +7, the player can assume that he plays the (sligtly) most powerfull race of all the base races. In fact, if he plays anything else than a magic user/illusionist he will play the weakest of all... But still will pay for it.

We can look at it from another angle : elves/half-elves are the exception, not the rule. They are the ONLY races from the core ones who penalise the player if he choose a specific classe. This is not "sexy" from a player point of view.
Another point : if you use the "races are classes" from the companion 3, this capacity still doesnt fit well => she's completely useless for the character because he can already use armor and weapons.

A simple fix could be to propose a elf version without this capacity and with a lower experience modifier.
But i must admit i'm not a big fan either of the "+2 against goblinoids" capacity because it's too much situational ("Guys, tonight you're gonna play Ravenloft, if you pick an elf, you're screwd").

That's why i think a real alternativ version could be usefull. :-)

Offline randalls

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 140
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: M74 Sucks! Can we fix it?
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2013, 11:51:01 am »
The fact that they have the capacity to use elven magic armors & weapons "even as magic users or illusionists" is kind of a lost capacity if you play another classe of character.

The cost of an elf is based on what abilities the elf has that a human does not. The ability to cast spells in armor is one of those elf special abilities. The elf has it, even if he never takes advantage of it.

Quote
It's rough to play a +7/+5 experience modifier race and to "pay" for a useless capacity if you want to play a ranger or a warlord.

0e, like other early forms of D&D is not about absolute balance nor charop, so I am not going top design Microlite74 around this type of balance. As I've said before, however, Microlite74 is not meant to be played "rules-as-written" (although it works if you do) -- it is meant as a starting point for the GM to customize to meet the needs of his setting and his players. If you don't like the way a race is set up, you can rewrite it as you and your players want it to work.

Quote
Ca we imagine a alternativ version of those races, maybe available in a companion ?

Sure. If someone writes up an alternate version of a Microlite74 race (or anything else) and posts on this board chances are good it will end up in a future "Optional Rules III" companion.

Offline randalls

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 140
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
Re: M74 Sucks! Can we fix it?
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2013, 11:38:17 am »
First point : In Microlite 74 extended we can see that half-orcs and Gnomes do have stats modifiers.

In the Companion I those stats modifiers are gone. IMHO the 2 versions of Half-orcs & gnomes should be the same in the core rules and in the companion.

Microlite74 Extended is my personal house-ruled edition. Companion I is a set of optional rules that can be used with different versions of M74. Where there is overlap between the extra rules of Microlite74 and the optional rules of Microlite71 Companion I, the overlap may not be 100%. That is, my house rule in Extended may be different from the general optional rule in Companion I.

Quote
And because the dark elf is only available in the companion, the reader can wonder : does this race have (forgotten) stats modifiers too ?

I do not use Dark Elves as PCs, so they aren't in Extended. No version of Microlite74 is intended to be played "rules-as-written" however. If you want to use dark elves in Microlite74 extended, feel free to add them -- with or without stat modifiers as you prefer.

Offline Islayre

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Country: fr
    • View Profile
Re: M74 Sucks! Can we fix it?
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2013, 06:02:29 am »
Other point : I'm not a huge fan of the Core rule version of Elves and Half elves.

The fact that they have the capacity to use elven magic armors & weapons "even as magic users or illusionists" is kind of a lost capacity if you play another classe of character.
It's rough to play a +7/+5 experience modifier race and to "pay" for a useless capacity if you want to play a ranger or a warlord.

Ca we imagine a alternativ version of those races, maybe available in a companion ?

Offline Islayre

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Country: fr
    • View Profile
Re: M74 Sucks! Can we fix it?
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2013, 05:49:04 am »
Hi guys !

As Randall already know i'm a French M74 extended enthousiast and i hope you'll forgive my bad english...

I will post here (it seems appropriate) some toughts i have about M74's possible fixs.

First point : In Microlite 74 extended we can see that half-orcs and Gnomes do have stats modifiers.

In the Companion I those stats modifiers are gone. IMHO the 2 versions of Half-orcs & gnomes should be the same in the core rules and in the companion.

And because the dark elf is only available in the companion, the reader can wonder : does this race have (forgotten) stats modifiers too ?

Offline LibraryLass

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
    • View Profile
Re: M74 Sucks! Can we fix it?
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2013, 09:05:51 pm »
Yeah, the flavor problem is something that can't be solved without taking away Microlite74's inherent microness and lightness. A fair amount of my own contributions last year were made specifically for the benefit of other GMs, but there's more that could be done... Perhaps a sort of Microlite DMG?

Offline randalls

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 140
  • Country: us
    • View Profile
M74 Sucks! Can we fix it?
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2013, 06:14:27 pm »
In a new thread over at theRPGsite entitled Your favorite game sucks. Tell me why. that is for listing problems with your favorite games, LibraryLass said the the following about M74:

Quote
Microlite74's minimalism is beautiful, but it also puts a lot on the DM's shoulders. There's simply no time for flavor either.

You know what? Both are true. The second doesn't matter much to me. It's hard to put flavor into a set of rules that are intended to be used in many different settings and for many different styles of play. Putting a lot on DM's shoulders is much more of an issue. What could I add to M74 that couple in a page or two of M74's fine print help take some of the burden off of the DM's shoulders?

If think flavor is more important than I do, I'm open to suggestions that do not involve narrowing the game setting-wise or play-style-wise. :)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 05:03:28 pm by randalls »

 

* Support This Site

RPGNow.com
Links to commercial products on this site are also generally affiliate links which earn this site a portion of any purchase you make.

Cancer Fund Donations

Support Microlite75 development as well as Microlite74, Microlite78, Microlite81, and this site with a donation to the Retro-Roleplaying Cancer Fund.

Your donations help pay medical bills, get you early access to drafts of RetroRoleplaying.com games like Microlite81 Complete and Fantastic Adventures and give you access to these donor-only PDFs:

- Grimoire Fanzine #1 (1978)
- Grimoire Fanzine #2 (1979)
- Hidden Valley House Rules (1984)
- Fourth Campaign Arn Player Info Packet (1984)
- M74 2.0 Special Edition
- M74 3.0 Extended Special Edition (3 digest volumes)
- M74 3.0 Perilous Adventures

Obtain copies of these (and more) for a donation to help pay our cancer-related bills. Donate $25 or more and you will be listed as a sponsor in Microlite81 Complete game.

Microlite75 Sponsors

RPGNow.com